27 years ago, the Ushiromiya family met for their annual conference. Trapped there by a storm, the family became victims to a bizarre serial murder, which remains unsolved to this day.What do you suppose happened beneath the veil of that typhoon?
>>94468385Someone wanted to inherit money
I was thinking about making a thread. Now I don't have to feel guilty.The Episode 4 was great, but I don't feel fulfilled.
I finally finished episode 8 earlier this week after procrastinating for a year. That city of books thing got stupid at the end, but I loved all the stuff that happened after that. It's too bad Ryu07 didn't give more to the Trick ending since it could've tied in nicely with the ending of episode 4 what with those guys being sniped and all.
Every thread until we reach the Golden Land.
>>94469446>"Tiny Food Bombs"Every time.
Rosa and George killed everyone, along with Nanjo as an accomplice.You're welcome.
Bad Parenting:ORBitches be Crazy:The Mystery
>>94470094>witches be crazyftfy
Who /desire/ here?
>>94469896I'm a Rosatricefag, but we can't say for sure that this is what happened on prime. There were several potential threads in Rokkenjima on that fateful day. There's no real denying Rosa is Beatrice though.
>>94471975>what happened on primeSo... are you using "prime" in a way I haven't seen before, or are you a Rosatrice proponent who believes in 1998? That'd be interesting, and sort of unusual, given the amount of attention KNM gets.
>>94471720This is nearly as silly as the "Erika/Battler split personality" theory we had a while ago.
>>94472898I don't believe in 1998 but I think KNM goes off the rails when he tries to interpret the metaworld. I think the gameboard shows us that what happened on prime wasn't necessarily orchestrated by Beatrice. It could've been just George if the epitaph got solved. An argument can be made for it being Rudolf and Kyrie as well.
There's only one mystery in Umineko.What does Lambdadelta taste like?
>>94472960I cite Van Dine's 9th >There must be but one detective — that is, but one protagonist of deduction — one deus ex machina. To bring the minds of three or four, or sometimes a gang of detectives to bear on a problem, is not only to disperse the interest and break the direct thread of logic, but to take an unfair advantage of the reader. If there is more than one detective the reader doesn't know who his codeductor is. It's like making the reader run a race with a relay team.Erika is Battler and they are the one detective. Erika represents the intellectual rapist part of Battler. The part that wants to solve the mystery. The part that wants to argue back against Maria. The part that wants to solve Beato's crime. Battler is the part that wants to keep it all in the catbox. Erika manifests as her own piece on the gameboard, but she is still an inherent part of Battler, hence the "even if you do join us, there are 17 people on Rokkenjima".
>>94473444The Van Dine Icosalogue is completely inapplicable to Umineko. It's never in red, and it's story-problem reductionist in a way that doesn't match Umineko's themes at all.
>>94473444Umineko is never confirmed to follow Van Dine's rules.
>>94473612>>94473623Beato confirms in the second game that the gameboard complies with Van Dine and Knox. Rokkenjima Prime doesn't apply, but Beato's games do. > It's never in redActually it's used in red three times in episode 7.
>>94473623I thought the point was to intentionally break them.
>>94473444God damn, I wish Erika was my split personality. I'd intellectual rape myself every night.
>>94473444>>94473612(Putting that aside, though, that's an interesting argument to make from the Battler-as-reader-self-insert perspective.)
>>94473736>Beato confirms in the second game that the gameboard complies with Van Dine and Knox.IIRC it was more like, "oh, was it Knox, or Van Dine? Anyway, I follow those sorts of rules too." Like, not confirming that it was exactly either set, let alone that it was exactly both.
The "erika ball" theory is actually pretty legit if you were fighting against Shkannontrice in Episode 6. You can solve the entire game with "Kanon inherited Kinzo's title" (to get him out of the cousins' room) and "Shannon was the designated detective."After all, the red that declares Erika's existence is "I proclaim that Erika Furudo is the detective." That could just assign Erika as the Detective's title. And then there's the whole meta bit where Erika talks about herself not existing.Too bad Ep. 7 happened and killed that.
>>94473887>"oh, was it Knox, or Van Dine? Anyway, I follow those sorts of rules too." Like, not confirming that it was exactly either set, let alone that it was exactly both.I think it's fair to take Beato's words at face value here. I don't think she'd lie about this and red text is used for both Knox and Van Dine on the gameboard and it is considered effective solely for being as part of Knox or Van Dine. White text is important too, you know? >>94473901>The "erika ball" theory is actually pretty legit if you were fighting against Shkannontrice in Episode 6. You can solve the entire game with "Kanon inherited Kinzo's title" (to get him out of the cousins' room) and "Shannon was the designated detective."If you're anti-Shkanontrice there's a much simpler explanation for the logic error.
>>94474019Is there really anything simpler than "Kanon inherited Kinzo's title" that also has story backing and fits (sort of) into meta-narrative?
>>94468781I was also prepared to make a thread, but seems like I didn't need to either. Good good. Now when it comes to discussion, I hate the Shkannontrice theory as an explanation for everything, even after it was "proved", but I like Shannon as Beatrice. Now Rosatrice does have some "plausible" points, and I watched the KNM video's, but honestly? Really? There's too much that doesn't make any sense.Anyways... long live the eternal golden witch.. in our hearts
>>94474139If Kanon inherited Kinzo's title and that was used to allow him to escape the logic error then Battler would've seen Kinzo rescuing him in the meta-world, not Kanon. Furthermore, if you are denying Shkanontrice then you are denying that Shkanon is the family head therefore it'd be impossible for Kanon to take Kinzo's title. The anti-shkanontrice explanation for the logic error is that Kanon escaped the room before it was sealed, as Erika only confirms who is in the room before she seals it. This also accounts for the letter that Erika found which told her Battler's corpse had been moved, as no one else could've placed it as Battler's room was sealed, the other five victims were dead and the guest rooms were also sealed, which means someone would've had to have escaped the guest room to have planted it before it was sealed, as Erika finds it immediately after sealing the rooms.
>>94474177I personally support Shannontrice. No need for Shkannon to exist.
So here's an interesting question.The following excerpt is from "Anti-Fantasy vs. Anti-Mystery", a bonus article released with Ep3. Ronove starts talking about the Red Truth, which had been introduced in Ep2:>But looking back, is what one calls the absolute "Red Truth" really the "truth"? I'm afraid not even Miss can confirm it. I presume some of you might have suspected whether you ought to believe in Miss's "Red Truth" or not? Yes, in this world, there is no such thing as truth that "can be proven". Therefore, if one wants to ask if one can believe this truth or not, please rephrase it in this manner.>"Do you really trust her?">Someday, you would surely marry the person you love. And then on that destined day, the priest will surely ask you the question. You wouldn't say "it's impossible to prove what she says is true or not" in that kind of situation now, would you? Pukukukukuku.>[...]>When you first heard of the rule of the "Red Truth", you asked Miss if the "Red Truth" can be trusted. Miss replied as such, "This is a game between me and you. The rule of the game is sacred. Those who scorn the rule are not qualified to participate!" Pukukuku...!>Which means that you and Miss have already established a sacred relationship of trust. This is indeed a connection even the demons would envy. Pukuku...!So, based on stuff that came later, there's decent reasons to believe that Beato would honor such a relationship with Battler. Her red is basically trustworthy.But she's not the only one who uses the red. There's also, among others, Bernkastel, whose opinion on the marriage scenario is that "there might always be undiscovered evidence X of unfaithfulness". She is not, was not, has never been on our side.When Bernkastel speaks in red, is it still the truth?
>>94474419>I personally support Shannontrice. No need for Shkannon to exist.How does Beatrice arrange for Kanon to come to the island? Why does the gameboard specify that Shannon and Kanon cannot be seen at the same time by a reliable perspective?
>>94474512That's just a rule of the gameboard to make it seem like they are the same person. Shannon heard that a young new servant was being hired, she didn't arrange it. There's actually a screencapped post that explains the theory.
>>94474493>When Bernkastel speaks in red, is it still the truth?It's said in the sixth game that what made the red truth effective was that lambdadelta, as a neutral party that can see both parties hands, accepts it or denies it, thus giving it validity. Bernkastel's red truth has to be approved by Lambda the same way Beato's is. The question isn't whether Beato or Bern is trustworthy but whether Lambda is. I think she is.
Uh, I don't know. I'm seriously lacking sleep so this might sound silly, but right now I'm wondering, what the hell is there to discuss?Is there even one question we haven't answered already?Not that I don't like Umineko threads, but yeah.
>>94474635>That's just a rule of the gameboard to make it seem like they are the same personAs a Rosatricefag, I believe this too, but I was hoping you might have something more concrete so I could steal it and use it for my theory ;_; >Shannon heard that a young new servant was being hired, she didn't arrange it.In the metaworld it says that Claire is responsible for Kanon coming to the island as a gift to Shannon for losing Battler. "I will give you a brother". I don't think it's fair to completely disregard this white text.
>>94474493Don't even fucking start, you don't want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes.
>>94474684Looks like we've got ourselves a goat, gents.
>>94474684Everything.We have no answers, because R07's an asshole that can't write a proper ending. Every single theory is valid and every single one cannot be disproven. It comes down to which you like more.
>>94474341You don't have to have Shkanontrice to have Kanon take over as Kinzo. Kinzo encouraged Kanon to solve the epitaph. Perhaps Kanon solved the epitaph and told Kinzo about it before he died, while Shannon never told Kinzo she did, or who she was. Also, it was confirmed in red that "At the time of the sealing" "Everyone was in the room." Kanon has no chance to slip out.
>>94474715Then maybe Genji saw that Shannon was depressed and arranged for a new servant to arrive to be her friend? Just because she was responsible doesn't mean that arranged it.
>>94474802Well, that's what I'm saying. If the question is "What really happened then and there," we already have the answer: The answer doesn't exist in the text nor in the author's mind. For all other questions we got either confirmation or something equal to confirmation.
>>94474860>Also, it was confirmed in red that "At the time of the sealing" "Everyone was in the room." Kanon has no chance to slip out.Here's what the red says >At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!Source: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth Kanon's location is not confirmed.
>>94474684Look around you.Something like the Word of God has come down from a cloud and all-but-confirmed the answer of Our Confessions, and yet people continue to speculate, and wonder, and argue whether that was what was really going on.Who's to say that twenty years from now, the last bottle might not ashore, and, by its introduction of new evidence, change the "true" answer under our feet?>If I continue to think, I will live on for all eternity.>In other words, if I stop thinking, I can die at any time.>However, once I start thinking again, I will revive no matter what.- Bernkastel, Witch of Miracles
>>94474985>The answer doesn't exist in the text nor in the author's mind.Ryukishi has claimed in interviews that Prime is solvable, and that Eva and Ange's motivations are key.From that evidence, it is possible to conclude that the answer exists at least in the author's mind.
Let me tell you what happened on Rokkenjima.Some people went on the island, the storm occured, only Eva left the island, when investigated - a giant crater instead of an island. The gold itself may or may not have existed (no proof of it existence was given outside the timeframe of 4-5th October 1986). Kinzo may or may not have been dead before 4th October 1986, Battler may or may not have been the fake one (aka, someone replaced him, because nobody seen him in 5 years), Shannon and Kanon may or may not have been the same person. The person who Ange meets in the end (read: while adult, in Magic ending) may or may not have been real Battler and could be just a case of adopted memories.Also,>1986>believing in witchesI hope you guys don't do this.
>>94474802Alright then. My theory: Angie was the killer. She poisoned her parents before they left with Hinamizawa Syndrome before they left for the conference. Eva happened to be the only one on the island with a natural resistance to the disease and was therefor the only one who survived.
>>94475263No, just Occam's razor. Stating witches' existence implies a lot more consequnces for the universe's laws as they're known raSeeing as there is no reproduceable and verifiable evidence of witches, it's simpler to assume that witches don't exist or their existence doesn't carry any significant consequences.And it's 2013 already, update your image.
>>94475197>Ryukishi has claimed in interviews that Prime is solvableHuh. I'd like to see this.
>>94475263>2013>still saying 2012
>>94469078>That city of books thing got stupid at the endIt's a metaphor for the collection of literary knowledge.The trick ending is a BAD END for Ange while the magic end is the True end.The Trick ending is, like you noticed, tied to the ending of episode 4.What you need to consider is the number of times Ange dies in the real world and the times she is with a meta being.Whenever she isn't with a meta being, it's the true events occurring in the real world, not within the story of Tohya while whenever she's with a meta being, Ange is a character of the story.Ep 8 was a great ending and I might be the only person who enjoyed it. It's really underrated.
>>94475423>>94475571Yeah, the screenshot generator was down for months, so sue me.
>>94475423Occam's razor cannot be applied to the real world since it isn't accepted by Witches, so you can't deny Witches with it.
>>94475611The trick ending is the reveal that Ange WAS Erika, and if you were too stupid to realize this I honestly feel sorry for you.
>>94475097Our Confession was a bit stupid yet it gave a answer so it's up to people to accept it or not I guess.>>94475727>Erika was the murderer on the island when she was 6 years oldYeaaaah. I feel sorry for myself for not noticing that earlier too.Erika is the self inserted mary sue piece by the consciousness of the mystery fans (Bern) who want to solve the mystery of Rokkenjima.
>>94475611You're not the only one. I thought it was quite beautiful. I was dreading it after EP7, but once I read 8, everything came into focus for me. I believe in Shannontrice, and what could be a better story than that?Also, above Beatrice, isn't Ange the most important? Her tragic character, finally coming to some sort of conclusion in EP8 was really touching. I loved it. I know others on here have said so too, but not everyone has enough love to see it...
>>94475721I'm not *denying* Witches, I'm saying that their existence is improbable. If we define witches as "beings with power absolute in vicinity of island Rokkenjima", it's alright. However, even in this case there is no reproduceable and verifiable evidence of them, thus making it a case of Devil's Proof. And if it's Devil's Proof, applying Occam's razor we can say that witches' existence, whether real or not, carries no or infinitesimal consequences for real world.And Occam's razor can be applied to anything, what the fuck, not aplying it because someone doesn't accept it? You're not trying to prove it to a Witch, thus, the point of Witch accepting it or not is moot.And real world doesn't work in binary logic, too, it works in field of probabilities, thus making the whole argument "lol witches exist! no they not!" moot. I say that it's a lot more probable for Witches to not exist than exist, with evidence given to us at the time.
>>94476112heehee, they think we don't exist!don't worry, we watch over you every nighthow else do you explain when things honestly just go missing, poof!
>>94475909The story of Umineko was written by Tohya for Ange.While ep 1-2 were likely written for anyone to solve the mystery, Tohya took it upon himself to make Ange give up her quest to find the truth and live her life.It's really a good ending with the underlying message being to move on with one's life. Even if people misinterpreted the whole thing with being ''lel I don't have to explain shit'' which is probably a similar way of saying the same thing but without love.>I believe in Shannontrice, and what could be a better story than that?I personally think that there is more to the story than just Yasu since it puts too much focus on her and not on the story itself, even though she is a tragic character, depending if you believe she existed or not with whichever theory you believe in.Either way, it was a good story.>>94474802Ryukishi ALWAYS writes his endings first. He's an asshole because he didn't give the ending you though he would give, not because it was a bad ending.The only thing he did poorly in my opinion was dragging out ep 4 with Ange and overextending the love explanation in ep 6.The ending of ep 8 was almost flawless.
>>94476293Yeah, it sure did a great job solving the goddamn mystery.
Man, I love this guy.So suave and awesome, with a hint of gay making him perfect..
>>94468385a young man gets raped by an intellectual while his sexy italian girlfriend is forced to watch
>>94476346That's because the ghostwriter for Higurashi is not the same ghostwriter for Umiunko.
>>94476293Anyone else really like the games in ep 8? I like to think of the entire first 7 episodes as epilogue and then we finally get to the real VN in ep 8 where we can interact with the characters and gain gold coins!
>>94476346Look who's the hypocrite. Look at yourself you fucker.Ryukishi NEVER intended to reveal Umineko.Why do you assume Umineko was going to be like Higurashi when he spent whole chapters going on and on about how not revealing the mystery keeps it contained and forever discussed.Fuck you.He knew solving the goddamn mystery was something you should do on your own with the help of the community on the internet.''Don't stop thinking''. Yeah my ass. Gimme a solution.And what is it you don't like about the solution?Ep 7 wasn't explicit for you? He gave you the fucking answer on a silver platter, unless you think it wasn't the actual culprit.Seriously, I don't get people. They bitch that Ryukishi never gave the solution and yet the whole thing was given an explanation in one episode.You're the hypocrite.
>>94476287You can prove me that "witches" exist anytime if you:a) Provide me clear definition of the word "witch"; no subjective terms used.b) Satisfy the conditions of your definition, with reproduceable and verifiable evidence.If you do that, I'll accept that "witches" exist. However, what's the point if you can define "witches" as anything inherently possible and not carrying a mystical aspect, and then say that "witches exist"? There is no clear definition of the word "witch" given in Umineko anywhere, thus making the whole debate, well, moot.
>>94476735Yo gap, go make some holes in the plot, will you?Thanks.
>>94476563Because of what he fucking said>It's sad to come up with an answer if you have no way to see if it's right or notThat's exactly what he did. It's shitting on his fanbase. If you can't know that you're answer is right it's worthless. And if the solution was as definitive as you claim, then why the fuck do people still argue about this shit? Almost every week we get at least one or two threads hitting the bump limit arguing about nonsense that we'll never know the answer to, and it's pointless because we never will. And it'll go on forever, because R07's too pretentious to give an actual ending.
>>94476793I'm not sure if I agree that it's pointless.For one thing, people talk about Hamlet for pages and pages. Hamlet was never a "mystery" - I mean, assuming you don't subscribe to the Fortinbras Coup interpretation - but it's the kind of story with all kinds of hooks for people to discuss what they got out of it. That's an interesting, and occasionally rewarding, exercise.But even putting that aside, if Ryukishi were to announce that some fixed time period hence a true solution would be released, why would that make all these discussions more or less important? We're still arguing over hidden variables in - and subjective reaction to - a story. And we're all anonymous, so it's not like when the answer comes out anyone can use it as a badge of "hey look at me I was able to see the culprit's/the witch's/Ryukishi's heart". Reasoning to a solution, yes, you could argue that it has more of a point when there's a way to check your reasoning. But discussing your solutions? How does that lose anything from there not being a known point in the future at which the answer will be revealed?
>>94476793He never shat on the fanbase, the overall theme of Umineko is that mystery fans are not actual mystery fans who seek an answer, they are just there for the ride.Why can't you just accept the open book ending and make up your own goddamn theory of what happened? Close the story yourself. Why are you asking for Ryukishi to end it for you when he wants you to do it.He wants you to become the gamemaster after you understand the whole story and put an end to the whole thing.It doesn't matter if there is an explanation, that's the whole purpose of it.Prime was never meant to be solved, no one is left alive to tell what happened.Umineko gives 5 accounts of what might have happened on prime depending on small variations. Each mystery has been solved and the meta explanation is debatable but actually solvable.If everything was given an explanation, it would be interesting and would limit our understanding of the story because if Ryukishi said that's what X means then it must obviously mean that, right?Getting an answer limits and stops discussion.Fuck, HE GAVE THE FUCKING SOLUTION. Whether you agree with that solution is a different matter.You just want the whole fucking thing spelled out for you.
>>94476652There's something poetic about this argument happening parallel to a discussion of whether it's better/necessary to "kill the mystery" by revealing a solution.I think they're sort of the same question.
>>94477224I can't accept open book endings because open book endings are terrible endings. I did enjoy the ride, up until around episode 7, when the whole story collapsed. The thing is, the ride has to end at some point. You have to get off and move on to a different ride. R07 never let anyone move on, they're all trapped trying to solve the mystery because there IS no solution and there never will be. Maybe that's the point now that I think about it.
>>94477395It's certainly reminiscent of someone, now that you mention it.
>>94477395It's Umineko. The ride never ends.
>>94477395How is there not a solutionThe entirety of ep7 WAS the solution. If you didn't like it, that's what thing, and if you didn't understand it, that's another, but you can't say that there was never any explanation given.Why would anyone write such a long series and then give an extremely detailed "fake" answer?? It wouldn't make any fucking sense.
>>94477395I think the ride ended. Or at least, it ran out of steam.Or maybe people just gave up.Something Ryukishi didn't anticipate, which I find foolish, are the mystery fans.They kept debating and arguing for many years about what happened. They traveled around the world and met up just so that they can try and figure out the mystery.On that point, I think Ryukishi was naive, thinking we would endlessly debate his story when people do move on after a certain point.If a resolution isn't given, people do in fact just give up and think lesser of the whole thing.I think we just want a conclusion. And having the whole thing be left to the reader to create his own conclusion and close Umineko themselves isn't something most people tend to do in my opinion.To me, the mystery, the story, the characters, everything is resolved and given an ending.I understand the story and all the characters and motivation and almost all the red herring.I can put the story to rest and be happy with Umineko in general. But I feel that not everyone does that. They want the author to end it how he wants it.
>>94477686If you think that there's actually a solution to Umineko you should really hang out in the threads more. There's dozens of solutions, and none of them can ever be proven or disproven.
Help me refine this shit /a/.JESSICATRICE THEORY V1 Accomplices: Genji, Kanon and Nanjo. Kanon wants to be with Jessica and not be 'furniture'. Genji serves Jessica as she is the true head. Nanjo is bribed with the gold because he needs the money to cure his sick grandchild. Other people of importance: Shannon and Kumasawa are aware that Jessica is the true head of the Uroshimiya family but are not accomplices. Gohda, Natsuhi and Krauss are not aware she is the head. George is also not aware. George also intends to kill people on the island for similar motives as Jessica does, but neither him nor Jessica are aware of each other's plans. Both George and Jessica seek out Nanjo as an accomplice as they both know his value. Nanjo agrees to go with Jessica because Jessica has the gold and George probably has little to offer but his own finances, however, he doesn't tell Jessica about George in case Jessica's plan fails to manifest. Motive: Jessica is a fan of the occult who got into the hobby through Kumasawa and her interactions with Kinzo. She might possibly believe it truly exists on some level. She wants to rid herself of the Uroshimiya family so she can be with Kanon. If Kanon dies during the events of the game, she has resolved to blow up the island with the bomb, killing everyone. The bomb is set at the beginning of the game so the bomb will also go off if Jessica herself dies. She will ultimately obey the outcome of her roulette. She also wants to get Battler to confess his sin to Shannon. For this reason and due to her friendship with Shannon, she never kills her. 1/?
>>94477686I personally think that ep 7 was a fake answer.It's just me and I can think whatever I want but I like to imagine that Ryukishi wrote Umineko with both theories in mind and the whole thing was a red herring.Purposefully giving the reader a fake culprit with an unreliable narrator and world while giving the feeling that not everything is truthful and then not giving the full explanation.
>>944777642/?Yasu: Jessica is Yasu. Yasu is a persona of hers that Jessica used in her youth to hang out with the servants. It's possible she even disguised herself and fooled her family or the other servants into believing she actually was one. This explains her close relationship Shannon and Kanon. She shares a room with Shannon in the servant house off the island when she cannot return to the island. First game: In the first twilight, everyone in the shed is dead except for Shannon. Shannon is spared either by Jessica's own whim or Kanon's request. She is drugged and her body is truly in the shed but is still alive and is outside Battler's view. Hideyoshi truly see's Shannon lying there but does not see the extent of her wounds which don't exist. Kanon lies about the state of her wounds her true. George, believing that Shannon is dead gives up on his desire to kill his family. In the second twilight, Kanon and Genji cut the chain and lie about it being intact. Jessica probably joins them at some point and draws the marking on the door. The fifth twilight, Kanon fakes his own death. In the sixth, seventh and eighth twilights, Kanon murders Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa. As Maria recognises Beatrice not by her appearance but by her actions, she accepts that Beatrice is inhabiting Kanon and not Jessica this time. Kanon also murders Natsuhi. However, due to Natsuhi being watchful over Jessica and Jessica not being allowed to excuse herself at any time, Jessica runs out of time and is unable to turn the bomb off, killing everyone on the island. Kanon is not aware of the bomb and she is also unable to give him the order to turn the bomb off due to everyone thinking Kanon is dead.
>>94477764>>94477818Oh ho ho ho. You're actually writing it.Cool.
>>944778183/?Second game: When Jessica approaches Maria disguised as Beatrice and Rosa catches her there, Jessica convinces Rosa to become an accomplice. The first twilight is carried about by Jessica and Rosa. Jessica shows Rosa the gold but does not tell her about the bomb to convince her. Rosa leaves the message "Happy Halloween to Maria" on the door. Rosa becomes aware that Kanon, Genji and Nanjo are Jessica's accomplices during this time. Rosa ropes Nanjo onto her side by agreeing to split the gold 50/50 and kills Kanon and Jessica in the second twilight. She hides Kanon's corpse and intends to blame the murders on the now absent Kanon. Nanjo takes Kumasawa hostage and makes Gohda, Jessica and Genji say Kanon killed them both. They are both later killed by Rosa but before the fifth, sixth and seventh twilights. Because Shannon is still alive, George still wants to carry out his murders so he kills Gohda in Natsuhi's room. However, he knows that there is another killer on the island and tells Shannon he wants to fake their deaths using the stakes and comes clean with his plan. Shannon rejects him and, in a confrontation, both are murdered. Rosa separates herself from Battler and goes to get the gold but dies in the explosion.
>>94477818>>94477764>JessicatriceIt's like I'm really back whenever episode 2 came out!
>>94477688>On that point, I think Ryukishi was naive, thinking we would endlessly debate his story when people do move on after a certain point.Maybe. But as a counterpoint: wasn't Ep8, on a certain level, all about whether you choose to move on?
>>944778664/?Third game: First twilight, all six are killed. Jessica intends to spare both Shannon and Kanon but they are killed by Nanjo without Jessica's knowledge as Nanjo is suspicious of the pair and not trusting of Jessica. The closed room is broken by Nanjo having the key to the parlour all along (as he killed Shannon last) and he plants the key on her corpse. Eva solves the epitaph and Jessica has some method of detecting this. She goes to tell Eva the truth but finds Rosa there as well. She confesses to both of them, tells them about Kuwadorian and the bomb, her murders and accepts Eva as the new head in a similar fashion to what we see Beatrice do in the seventh game. This is represented by Beatrice and the creation of Eva-Beatrice in the meta world. Jessica tells Nanjo and Genji her plans are over. She has no way of telling Kanon thus doesn't discover he his dead. She probably doesn't need to tell him as, in this game, Kanon probably doesn't have much to do except play dead. Genji accepts this but Nanjo does not as his grandchild is still sick. He falls back on George but George says he has no desire to kill as Shannon is now dead. Nanjo comes clean about Jessica and lies, saying Shannon is still alive. George is now aware, from Nanjo, that his mother and Rosa solved the epitaph. He confronts Rosa about this. Rosa confirms it and George murders her and Maria.
>>94477890You'll notice that Jessica has the same blonde hair as Beatrice.She's the only possible culprit.
>>944779275/?Third game cont: George also carries out the fourth, fifth and sixth twilights. He follows Nanjo's instructions of using the stakes to make it look like Jessica is still the killer. George wants to leave to see Shannon so Nanjo lets him out. However, Nanjo realises George will find out she is dead so he goes down to prevent George from reaching Shannon and discovers Krauss and Natsuhi dead, having been murdered by Eva, Eva suspecting they were the culprits as no one in their family suffered a casualty. Nanjo moves their corpses and sets up their wounds making them consistent with the other murders and arrives in the parlour too late. George, having discovered Shannon is dead turns on Nanjo for his betrayal. Nanjo is prepared, however, and wounds George, knocking him unconscious and believing him dead. Nanjo has now just lost his last hope at getting the money for his grandchildren so he writes the bank account on the wall as a last ditch hope. George, however, is not dead and hunts down Nanjo while Nanjo is treating Jessica and murders him. George, believing Jessica was responsible for Shannon's death, follows her into the parlour with the intention to kill her, but his mother and Battler see him and realise he is the culprit. George confronts Eva and Eva is forced to kill him in south defense. Eva then kills Battler as a witness to George's crimes. Jessica is also a witness but she is blinded and helpless so Eva escapes to Kuwadorian and lets the bomb kill Jessica as Jessica cannot possibly turn it off. The bomb also hides the evidence of George's crime.
>>944779816/6 Fourth game: Because the siblings uncover Kinzo is actually dead, Jessica takes an alternate method. She orders Kanon, Genji and Nanjo to kill six people and take the remainder hostage down in Kuwadorian. The siblings put up a fight which results in Genji's death, but with the element of surprise, Kanon and Nanjo are able to get the advantage. They tell Gohda and Kumasawa to lie to the cousins and say they have an accomplice among the cousins and will know if they lie. Kanon and Nanjo then order Gohda and Kumasawa to be locked up and use Kinzo's game as a way to split the cousins up to kill the remainder and elicit an apology out of Battler. Jessica and George are the first chosen so they both leave. Jessica confronts George and kills him. She then makes her call to Battler. From here it gets a bit wonky, but Jessica intends to return to Kanon and those imprisoned make their escape. Kanon is killed in the escape and Jessica finds out or witnesses his death and kills everyone else, including Nanjo and her father. Kyrie manages to escape but Jessica hunts her down. Jessica's only goal left to be fulfilled is getting Battler to apologise so she manages to calm herself down, makes Kyrie give the call to Battler and then kills her. Jessica dresses up like Beatrice just as she did in the second game and confronts Battler making him confess his sin. Battler doesn't remember so Jessica gives up and kills herself in her room. Either before or after confronting Battler, she poisons Maria and leaves her by her mother. Battler dies in the explosion.p-please respond
>>94477917It was.But maybe humans are just stuborn creature and we can't deal with something uncertain.The options are always, keep struggling, move on or give up.Ryukishi emphasised the answer of just moving on but not everyone is content with that.We did spend a good amount of time reading his story. To just be told ''make up your own ending, I gave you all the pieces to do it'' really is underwhelming at the end.Funny enough, the mystery fans, the collective consciousness representing Bern who is the so called villain of Umineko, never stopped arguing about Rokkenjima. They never moved on. They kept arguing about it.I sometimes wonder if it was meant to be that way. Or maybe I'm looking too deep into it.
>>94477981>south defenseself defense* >>94477890I've always been partial to the theory, hence why I wrote this up.
>>94477752I'm all for thinking up and discussing various theories for fun, but there is clearly an answer Ryukishi heavily meant to imply and stand by. If you don't trust the guy who literally made the series about his own answer, then yeah, you could come up with any kind of answer.But considering how much time was spent on the whole "mysteries are based on trust between reader and writer" thing, I think anyone who doesn't trust him kind of missed the point
>>94478265>But considering how much time was spent on the whole "mysteries are based on trust between reader and writer" thing, I think anyone who doesn't trust him kind of missed the pointI think it's you who missed the point. All of the writer characters in Umineko go out of their way to actively deceive the readers and make them accept false conclusions.
>>94478405Except the absolute biggest theme in the series is Battler and Beatrice's relationship as a reader versus an author and Battler not believing her.Erika even comes in as the reader when Battler become the author to further drive in the point.
>>94478405That's called a red herring.There's still a truth at the end, meant to be uncovered.
>>94477764>>94477818>>94477866>>94477927>>94477981>>94478022About as valid as any other theory. I can dig it.
>>94478022Not bad, I like it.But what about Ep 5?
>>94478022Some procedural questions, since you've used a nonstandard explanation how Shannon/Kanon/Yasu works.What's 1998?What's with meta-Beatrice's relationship with Battler, if Beatrice=Jessica and Battler's sin was against Shannon?Why is Kanon "the zero on the roulette" in Ep1? Or is that a red herring?
>>94468385a magicthing happens.
>>94478747The zero on the roulette means he didn't want to be with Jessica anymore.
>>94478655Still needs some ironing out.>>94478713>But what about Ep 5?George. I'll fall back on the Rosatrice theory's explanation for Episode 5, except substitute Jessica in for Rosa where applicable. >>94478747>What's 1998?Just a possible future within the catbox. I don't think any theories except Ange's 1998 as factual. >What's with meta-Beatrice's relationship with Battler, if Beatrice=Jessica and Battler's sin was against Shannon?I'm kind of fond of Jessica having had a crush on Battler in the past or still being attracted to him, but I don't think I'll go there. Jessica probably helps Shannon overcome her love for Battler and move onto George and wants to see Battler punished and admit his own fault for what Shannon went through. The parallels between Beatrice and Jessica herself are evident and I think Beatrice represents some kind of romantic understanding between Jessica and Shannon. Beatrice represents the pain Shannon went through and the bond shared between Jessica and Shannon in overcoming that, and that's why meta-Beatrice's relationship with Battler is portrayed as a romantic one. >Why is Kanon "the zero on the roulette" in Ep1? Or is that a red herring?I think I'll go with a red herring, but if you have any better suggestions feel free to suggest them. I initially theorised that Kanon was a reluctant accomplice and in some games betrays Jessica but there's no way for Jessicatrice to work without someone faking their death at some point who isn't Nanjo and Kanon is definitely not killed in that Boiler Room, the red doesn't allow it. Maybe by the 'zero on her roulette', he means a fake corpse?
>>94478956>I don't think any theories except Ange's 1998 as factual.accept*
>>94478956Stray thought.The function of a zero on a roulette wheel is to provide an unlikely third option to what would otherwise be a coinflip.The purpose of a zero on a roulette wheel is to create the house advantage.Perhaps there was some contingency plan involving neither expected outcome, in which Kanon's assistance would be needed.
>>94479159I love you. There's no way Jessica could've known how many people Natsuhi would've sent out of that room or that people might need to be killed in order to ensure their escape.
>>94478956>Just a possible future within the catbox. I don't think any theories except Ange's 1998 as factual."Possible future" implies some interesting things about how the catbox works.The traditional interpretation is that, because the bomb destroys all evidence, anything might have happened under its veil. But that only makes sense when viewing the massacre from the future.If the catbox extends *into* the future, what perspective could possibly see it as a superposition? I mean, unless this is all happening before the murders take place, in some sort of flash-forward speculative anxiety over possible outcomes.
>Jessica being the culpritNOOOOO. God damn it, this is the kind of shit Umineko mocked outright. Making people culprits just because they don't have an alibi is wrong. Umineko says it's comparable to sacrilege for a character and the character's motives, hopes and dreams and all that. You're making Jessica the culprit, and making Jessica miserable. It's meta as fuck but it still feels wrong.I can't believe that anyone in the actual Ushiromiya family committed the crime.
>>94479420If I understand correctly, your point is "don't forget the heart". That motives and characterization matter, and might even be the most important. That's valid. I think I agree.But then, why do you exonerate the family specifically? Why do you consider their motivations and characterization to be above murder, but not that of the servants?Or do you prefer to conclude that a wicked witch did these vile deeds to please her wicked heart?
>>94477764At the end of ep6, it's said in red that "Even if you join us, there are 17 people". This is said towards Erika. That means that without Erika, there are 16 people. Note that this isn't saying there aren't more than 16 people, it's saying that there are EXACTLY 16 people, no more, no less.If Jessica is just one of Yasu's personalities, that drops it to 15, and that isn't allowed by the red.
>>94479420>>94479695(To be clear: I'm not arguing against your main point, that it's not consistent to Jessica's characterization. Just your last sentence, claiming that everyone "in the actual family" is similarly cleared.)
>>94479700Shannon and Kanon are separate people in this theory.
>>94479695Because Kinzo's ghost did everything.I submit the "Ghost Kinzo" theory to explain everything. Kinzo died and got pissed to hell, then started pulling pranks and possessing people to commit murder in order to revive Beatrice and drag her to hell as his property.
>>94479700>At the end of ep6, it's said in red that "Even if you join us, there are 17 people". This is said towards Erika. That means that without Erika, there are 16 people. Note that this isn't saying there aren't more than 16 people, it's saying that there are EXACTLY 16 people, no more, no less.There are numerous interpretations of that scene. I'll go with Erika is dead, which means even if she joins them, she isn't included among their number, meaning there are 17 people in total and people does not include personalities. >>94479420Actually, Umineko presents truth as something that is ambiguous and fluid and R07 has said that as long as something isn't contradictory and doesn't ignore the heart, it is valid within the catbox. >>94479747How would you say it isn't consistent with Jessica's characterisation?
>>94479853I didn't say I agreed or disagreed. I don't have a good enough handle on Jessica's personality.Just that I wasn't going to argue that point.
>>94479853On what basis do you even claim Erika is dead? Nothing in the story even remotely implies that she was even injured on the gameboard. Even in the metaworld, she was still alive as that red truth was made.
So, what if Bato/Lion? Like, serious, in the 1/2,578,917 chance of that world happening, I want to think about it. I think it would be interesting. And we know that even in this world, the murders have a possibility of happening...
>>94480060>Nothing in the story even remotely implies that she was even injured on the gameboard.Yeah, people survive boat crashes in massive storms and wash up on islands fine all the time. Someone dying from that is unthinkable. And Bernkastel threatening to send her back into the abyss time and time again should she fuck up also isn't suspicious at all.
Considering the immense amounts of gold the Ushiromiya had, I'd assume that it'd likely have something to do with the Yamashita gold.
>>94480165Then explain how ep5 and ep6 even happen with Erika being a dead body the entire time
>>94480165What would it mean for the detective to be a corpse, though? How does a corpse witness things, or have any kind of perspective at all?
>>94480274>>94480285Episode 5 and episode 6 aren't written by Beatrice or Tohya Battler.
>>94480105Hmm.It's an interesting "what if", but it'd take some doing. Battler's... tastes, let's say, would probably have to have developed a bit differently.
NO /a/ YOU ARE THE KILLER
>>94480364Ange mentions that End of the Golden Witch (ep5), was one of Ikuko's works. Ikuko had been writing with Tohya for a while by this point. It was written by them.
>>94480387well, who knows what situation could develop. the gender issue is something we don't have a definitive answer on, so things could go any way.and there could be a crossdressing Lion, wanting to match Battler's desires...
>>94480548That is a defense solely for episode 5, not the others. Furthermore, there is nothing to suggest that Ikuko didn't write the work herself and that Battler had no influence. Regardless, simply because the character was featured in the writing does not mean they were actually on Rokkenjima. I think it can be concluded without much argument that Erika was definitely not alive and influencing things on prime.
>>94480364Okay so first off unless you accept that the top of the symbol-referent ladder is Ange's 1998, that statement is irrelevant at best and meaningless at worst.Second off, if the author is untrustworthy enough that their detective narration is unreliable, then what were Ep5 and Ep6 for to begin with?
>>94480635Yes, she wasn't influencing things on prime, which means she also wasn't influencing the fact that there were 16 people. Because if she WAS influencing it, there would be 17. That is what that red truth was about.
>>94480958>That is what that red truth was about.Or she died in the boat crash and thus doesn't count amongst the 17 on the island. Considering the verifiability of the Chiru arcs and, indeed, all the gameboards is questionable, I don't see how you can disprove that dead Erika isn't valid. Just because Erika is dead on prime doesn't mean she can't be made alive by the author in one of his/her works. Furthermore, it's important to note that the red text is the checkmate against Erika, it denies her existence and kills her. Saying "if you were here there would be one more amongst us" is more of an acceptance than a denial of her. Saying "even if you join us, you wouldn't be amongst our number regardless" is a denial of her existence and fits with what happens to Erika afterwards.
>>94480958Okay.Listen.Regardless of the content of Prime (against which red is useless if you're going to talk about authors), the red about Erika's presence and the number of people on the island applies to the game in which she appeared.In the game in which she appeared, was she alive, or a corpse?If she was alive, you still need to explain how the red is reconciled.If she was a corpse, are we mistaken about "the detective's" narration being trustworthy? And if not, how could she talk about how she taped up a door, when she was a corpse incapable of taking meaningful action?
>>94481126>Regardless of the content of Prime (against which red is useless if you're going to talk about authors), the red about Erika's presence and the number of people on the island applies to the game in which she appeared.Actually, it doesn't. The red is stated off the gameboard in the chapel.
>>94477311>I think they're sort of the same question.They're not. Yes, if you cave clear cut definitions and complete set of statements, the solution can be derived from it, but that's not the point.I'm annoyed with Ryukishi not including clear definition of "witch" in a story, where everything revolves around interpretations of words and statements. When the goal is unclear, how do you reach it? Would you even ever reach it, or would the author shift the goalposts as soon as you approach them, exploiting the unclearness of goal?
>>94481126In the game in which she appeared, she was alive. Therefore she did join them, and there were 17 people. That means that, at least in ep5 and ep6, there were 16 people other than Erika. And that means that the Jessicatrice theory would not work for those two games, as it involves 17 people existing other than Erika. That theory may or may not work for ep1-ep4, but ep5 and ep6 still need to be explained as well in order to make the theory absolute.And let's not even go into why ep7 would exist if this theory were true. Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting theory, and it might work, but it's definitely not the real truth.
>>94481449>Therefore she did join them, and there were 17 people.Erika says in red that she is the 18th human. So no, there aren't 17 people.>And let's not even go into why ep7 would exist if this theory were trueYou're new to these threads, aren't you? Only goats still believe Shkanontrice has any validity.
Some food for thought for theorists: EP8 manga added some red text pertaining to EP5.Natsuhi received the phone calls on October 5. But the person who called her was not Battler. It was not Kinzo, it was not Krauss, it was not Natsuhi, it was not Eva, it was not Hideyoshi, it was not Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Jessica, George, Batter, Maria, Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, or Gohda. It was none of those eighteen people. And of course it was not Erika.
Hey, guys, you know what your flaw is?You can't accept the fact that a single problem may have multiple solutions.It's that easy. Stop looking for "correct" solution, they all are as long as they don't contradict given red truths.
>>94481616It was not a *person*, it was a *voice recording* of one of these persons. So fuck logic.
>>94481616How reliable is the manga? We know the anime was supervised by R07 but do we have a similar confirmation on the manga?
>>94481753Yes, he stated he oversaw the manga and actively planned on adding additional hints and making things clearer in the EP7 and EP8 mangas.
>>94481486But Battler says in red that she would be 17 people if she joined them. You're trying to argue that she was the 18th human, but you're also arguing that she's dead and therefore doesn't count towards those 17. But in that case, she also wouldn't count towards being the 18th person, so she wouldn't have been able to say that in red, because that would be counting corpses, which we don't do, with Kinzo as proof. Therefore it is clear that they are talking about if she joined them while alive. Meaning that there are 16 people if you don't count Erika.>Only goats still believe Shkanontrice has any validity.That's about as ass-backwards as you could possibly be. Did you even understand ep8? The goats were the ones who had theories other than Shkanontrice.
>>94481830>But Battler says in red that she would be 17 people if she joined them.Yes, but Battler doesn't say she is the 17th person. > You're trying to argue that she was the 18th human, but you're also arguing that she's dead and therefore doesn't count towards those 17.Yes. >Therefore it is clear that they are talking about if she joined them while alive. Meaning that there are 16 people if you don't count Erika.How can Erika be the 17th and 18th person simultaneously, I wonder? Also, Erika is dead theory states she didn't die until after she arrived on the island, so she joins them and then dies. Another interesting fact is they always use "human" when referring to dead people in the red text and "person" when referring to living people. The biggest example of this is at the end of episode 4.>The goats were the ones who had theories other than Shkanontrice.No, the goats were people who were ignoring motive.
>>94481830>That's about as ass-backwards as you could possibly be. Did you even understand ep8? The goats were the ones who had theories other than Shkanontrice.If you haven't noticed, there's one person who keeps showing up in these threads constantly talking to themselves about how Rosatrice is totally the answer and trying to make an echo chamber.Ryukishi had a specific answer in mind, and he's shown it over and over. It's just that he's also made clear he doesn't resent people who want to keep having fun speculating and theorizing, if they want to come up with alternate answers. Rosatrice and its ilk are fine like that, fun thought exercises that treat Umineko more like a masturbatory puzzle than an actual story. But it's ridiculous and inane to pretend that it was ever a single inkling of Ryukishi's intent behind the story, ever.
>>94482002Oh look, it's the Shkanonfag who missed the point of the story entirely.
>>94481635This is true, but the other problem is that people can't accept that the author clearly had an answer that was meant to be the truth.I mean, try to piece together other answers if you want to, that's fine and it's fun to do, but if you're doing it because you think Shkanontrice is "wrong", it's kind of dumb. An author can't be wrong about the canon of their own work.And I mean, it's a pretty shitty thing to do to Ryukishi. He writes this long series with tons of meaning and emotion, and you just kind of brush it off and call the whole thing bullshit because you don't like the answer he himself came up with and intended.You're allowed to not like it, but you can't deny it and say it's incorrect.
>>94482114>An author can't be wrong about the canon of their own work.No, but the author can lie. He said he didn't want people to find out the answer. He said he'd placed cruel traps in the narrative for people who stopped thinking.
>>94482114It's not like I don't entirely understand. Some of them are probably people who followed Umineko as it went on and put a lot of thought and effort into it, and then it didn't turn out the way they wanted it to.That's cool. Umineko has some particular themes and arcs going on. Maybe it's not for you. And Yasu is a pretty tough character to fully wrap your head around, I didn't like the answer either until I took the time and effort to fully understand him. And hey--maybe you do have fun shooting the breeze thinking of ways that other answers could technically fit the red text. Gohdatrice and Okonogitrice and shit are kinda fun that way too.But these people reject the answer outright on the basis of "it's retarded," refuse to give it any more thought, and then delude themselves into thinking Ryukishi is super-secretly on their side all along and they are the chosen ones who can see the secret hidden truth. It's kind of sad.
>>94482210>No, but the author can lie. He said he didn't want people to find out the answer. He said he'd placed cruel traps in the narrative for people who stopped thinking.He never said that. The only thing he said was that he didn't want an answer that could simply be copy-pasted. He also said that instead of writing the answer as "2", he wrote it as "1+1". He also did say that if you didn't stop thinking, you could come to the answer. Some might be satisfied by that answer and some might not be, he expressed in-story he finds either reaction understandable. He also talked about how many people did grasp the answer but rejected it because they couldn't relate to it.
>>94482114As I said, there is no "wrong" answer. Answer that any random anon posts is *just as valid* as Shkanontrice theory, as long as it doesn't contradict given red truths. Yes, it may be ridiculous, contrived and generally hard to believe, but that doesn't make it *wrong*.Backward conclusion is also true, there is no reason to say that the conclusion that author given is *wrong*. It's even more stupid thing to say, seeing as author knows how to fit a solution over the statements (read: red truths) he given and has complete control over narrative.That's exactly why I said that you're doing flawed and useless work (although, who I am to take away your fun?) - arguing that some solutions are right and some are wrong when they're all technically correct.
>>94482002>>94482114>>94482236>>94482301Why don't you just stop? You're embarrassing yourself. >He never said that. But it's exactly what he said, word for word.
>>94482002Yes, this is exactly what I mean. Other theories are fine, and I'm having fun discussing this, but there's no denying that Ryukishi had Shkanontrice as his intention from the start. There's way too much foreshadowing of it to deny that that's what he intended. And since he happens to be the author here, that's what's canon.Other theories might work, but they're not what actually happened.>>94482002See, the thing about what Okonogi is saying here is that it applies to real life. It doesn't apply as much to fiction where the author clearly has a way that it's intended to be interpreted. Yes, you can still come up with other interpretations, but they won't be correct as far as the author himself is concerned.
>>94482323>Why don't you just stop? You're embarrassing yourself. You seem a little upset.>But it's exactly what he said, word for word.Wrong. The part about not wanting an answer that can be copy-pasted, guaranteeing that those who think will find the answer, that there is one answer, and that many people got it but didn't like it is from Answer of the Golden Witch in his interview with KEIYA. The "2" versus "1+1" thing is from his blog right before he released EP7.The supposed quote you're citing is from... nowhere, because it doesn't exist.
>>94482319It's like you're really Dlanor trying to defend Erika's retarded-ass theories that were so laughable they weren't even worth discussing in EP5. It's kind of admirable really.
>>94482495Should I take it as a compliment or an insult?
>>94476652Read EP8 again. There is undeniable evidence that Lambda, Bern and Aurora are real. Hints: Sakutarou and Beato doll.
Basically, the point is, people who think Ryukishi is lying about his own story that he put so much into are ridiculous and not worth listening toIf you have another theory that works, that's cool, but you have to acknowledge that Ryukishi meant for Shkanontrice to be the real answerWhy the hell would he write so much about it and then negate all of his work by having it be a lieAnd if your answer to that is "because he wanted to fool everyone", you really missed the point of this whole thingGo read something easier for you to understand
>>94482595As I said, definition of "witches", please.>>94482613Like I said, no "wrong" answers.Geez, guys, why the hell do you operate on binary logic? Can't you like accept that both or neither answers may or may not be possible? For fuck's sake, guys.
>>94482613This being said as far as non-Shkanontrice theories go Gohdatrice >>>>>>>>> Rosatrice in basically every way imaginable.
>>94482672I'm not saying other answers don't work, I'm saying that they're not what was intendedIt's really not hard to understand
>>94482707>implying that problem has an *intended* solutionLook, let's say there is a mathematical problem "x^2+3x+4=0". What is the *intended* solutionHint:There is none, you can get it with any method in your disposal, as long as x in the end satisfies the conditions of problem.It's not even that hard to understand.
>>94482784If you don't see the clear intent behind the single answer in Umineko, and the fact that there's a single solution behind is demonstrated over and over in the story, let alone Ryukishi insisting that there's a single answer outside of the story, I don't know what to tell you.What truth do you think Battler reached that allowed him to become Gamemaster?To be honest I think Ryukishi would get a huge kick out of Rosatrice. Some of the evasions they come up with are impressive in their sheer tenacity. But Ryukishi wrote the story being informed by an intended answer, he wasn't just throwing random shit at the wall.
>>94482784I think part of the issue is that Umineko has two different goals in relation to the truth for its two seperate protagonists, Battler and Ange.Battler goes on a journey to understand the truth as the author wrote it and intended it. Beatrice wanted him to reach the answer she wrote the gameboards in mind with, which was her salvation because she wanted to be understood.Ange is a different case. She's depicted as a survivor for whom it's most important that she reach a truth that satisfies her regardless of anything else and lets her be able to live comfortably. Both of these approaches are portrayed sympathetically, but they're very distinct. But Ryukishi giving Ange his blessing to come up with different ways to think of Rokkenjima doesn't change the answer that Beatrice wanted Battler to reach by having love for her.
>>94482930>What truth do you think Battler reached that allowed him to become Gamemaster?He reached the truth of plot device also known as deus ex machina.>If you don't see the clear intentThen enlighten me, why the hell would you require a sole answer?> Ryukishi insisting that there's a single answer outside of the storyFirst of all, proofs. Secondly, even if he says that there's one correct answer, he doesn't say it's the only one.
>>94483055I agree, but>reaching the truthand>reaching a truth that satisfies her regardless of anything else and lets her be able to live comfortablyare two completely different things.I am content with first. Ange isn't. When she is shown Black Battler theory, even though it's perfectly applicable, well...
>>94483100>He reached the truth of plot device also known as deus ex machina.That doesn't cut it. Battler is depicted as reaching the one truth behind the gameboards and Beatrice that lets him become gamemaster in a way Erika couldn't even though she also came up with a supposedly acceptable theory.>Then enlighten me, why the hell would you require a sole answer?Because the story, characters, and depictions are being written with that in mind.>First of all, proofs. Secondly, even if he says that there's one correct answer, he doesn't say it's the only one.Read Answer of the Golden Witch. It opens up with Ryukishi talking nonstop about those who reached "the truth", even saying he was scoring KEIYA on what parts he got right and what he got wrong. But here:R: Doing that is also rude towards the people who arrived at the truth. I also wanted to write a story where you can only get to the truth by reading it, for all those people who kept on thinking. But the only guarantee I can give you in return is that, if you read the thoughts of those who arrived at the truth now, even the people who did not arrive there can come closer to it. And I guarantee you that if you don’t stop thinking, then you will arrive at the truth. And by guaranteeing that, maybe some people will arrive there only through that.K: That there have already been people who arrived there is prove of just one truth in itself, isn’t it?R: Yes. And I didn’t want to spill it out even now. I want the players to find it themselves. But the one message I can convey in this book now is probably the one, that Umineko can be solved.
>>94483198Well Black Battler isn't a truth that would satisfy Ange and make her happy. EP8 is about giving Ange the right and blessings to construct her own truth since the probable real truth is so miserable for her, it's just about encouraging her to do so with love rather than hate.
>>94483364I find it very unsporting, to let a person arrive to a *correct* answer only to hear "Well, it's correct, true, but it's not *right*".It's like gving a problem "x=x", and whispering right into your ear "Hey, look, that 1 surely fits the answer. I mean, right? 1 is *the* answer, isn't it?". THE FUCK IT ISN'T! I MEAN, LOOK AT ALL THOSE 2s AND 3s AND ANY FUCKING NUMBER FITS IT FOR FUCK'S SAKE.>>94483541Well, that's exactly my point. Rejecting a correct solution only because you don't *like* it is just, well, fuck, I don't even know what to say. Also, she didn't *construct* a solution, she merely chosen the one that she liked most. And that's why it's bullshit.
>>94483364>>94483364>That doesn't cut it. Battler is depicted as reaching the one truth behind the gameboards and Beatrice that lets him become gamemaster in a way Erika couldn't even though she also came up with a supposedly acceptable theory.And we never find out what Battler worked out. >I also wanted to write a story where you can only get to the truth by reading it, for all those people who kept on thinking.I like how this quote completely disproves Shkanontrice. >you can only work out the answers by reading and thinking>By the way, here's all the answers winkwink nudgenudge
>>94481748Hahaha, I love you.
>>94484073>winkwink nudgenudgeOh, your wife, she's a sport, ain't she?
>>94483364Do you also have the interview in which R07 says Prime can be solved too?
>>94482613>Ryukishi is lying in his own storyHave you even read anything made by Ryukishi?He plainly states the truth but twist it in a way that makes you think of something else.Whenever he's truthful, he's likely lying and whenever he's vague, it means there's probably a truth to be known.>>94484073I don't think it disproves it but when Ryukishi plainly states the complete motive in ep 7 and then expects you to dig deeper when he pretty much gives everything on a silver platter, some bells start ringing.
>>94484193Unlikely to happen since Mangagamer doesn't own the rights to Umineko. In fact, no western publisher does.
>>94484337>He plainly states the truth but twist it in a way that makes you think of something else.>Whenever he's truthful, he's likely lying and whenever he's vague, it means there's probably a truth to be known.I find it difficult to believe that people would accept the author's word at face value in a story that's all about author characters deceiving reader characters.
>>94481616It was Ushiromiya Lion, of course. Or Yasu. Or XXX Yasuda. Or Beatrice.Or whatever it likes being called.
>>94484392Ryukishi loves to slip small bits of information at face value and make you think he's lying or that you'll forget or that you won't notice the small bit of information that is completely obvious.It's the reason why Ep 3 was damn shocking.He also does the same bullshit in Higurashi.Christ, I recently reread it and Mion just kept saying how she wasn't involved and I didn't believe her.The one thing I will say that hasn't disproven me of the theory is the way Shannon and Kannon act in every game.Every single time, they act like pieces on the gameboard. They practically break the 4th wall while everyone else acts in character.It really seemed to me like they were actors trying their best to blend in the scene.I remember several times Shannon and Kanon talking about the game Beatrice was doing like it had already happen and wondering when the whole thing will be over.I swear, that's the biggest thing that bugs me. Why the fuck does Shannon and Kanon act like game pieces while everyone is acting in character. This happens almost all the time.It made me think that they were the only people who could see the loop, like Rika but it didn't make sense in the overarching story.And Rosatrice doesn't take that into any account and it works with the ShKannon if both know they are the culprits in a set just waiting for the game to be over but it feels off somehow.
>>94484665Shannon and Kanon never talk like this in front of a reliable perspective, so it could just be a red herring. I don't like that explanation though. It's probably due to the fact they know who the head of the family is and thus are aware that that person is likely the killer.
>>94481616The boat captain was the one who called. Obviously.I really don't get the purpose of that red.What's the point of saying that no one on the island talked on the phone?Other than, you know, saying Yasu did it.I swear, replace Yasu with Witch or Mastermind or magic and you're back to square one.How did Natsuhi talk on the phone? Magic.Shannon and Kanon controlled by Magic and did X and Y
>>94484761Yeah, I thought of that but they really act calm about it.They way they mention it doesn't sound like they accept their doom, it's more like ''oh well, it's going to happen and it already happened again, I guess we just have to wait things out again, huh.''It really bugs me. It's likely a red herring but I just can't place it anywhere.
>>94477764Rosatricefag here, I think this has potential. I like it.
>>94484917>They way they mention it doesn't sound like they accept their doom, it's more like ''oh well, it's going to happen and it already happened again, I guess we just have to wait things out again, huh.''That's probably just the way in which the gameboard manifests their knowledge. It does so in a way that doesn't destroy the game. It's possible the first thing Shannon and Kanon did on Prime was freakout and tell everyone which resulted in the killer pulling an episode 7 on everybody.
>>94477764>JESSICATRICEIt's called Moonchan nigger.MOONCHAN
I think I remember that R07 said that, if he was still writing in the next 10 years, he would remake Umineko.What do you guys think he'll do without BT?
>>94485129He said, when BT died, that he will keep writing in honor of BT.That BT was his source and purpose to write stories. So as long as he keeps writing stories, he'll keep the memories and feeling he had writing for BT to shock and impress him.The first time I read that, I was pretty depressed. I'm sure he'll be fine without BT.My theory is that he paid to get a professional artist to work on Rose Guns Days so that he can work on his art in the next WtC. That would be pretty interesting. Coupled with the fact that Witch Hunt met with him a few months back to discuss his next game and you got some rumors of what he might be doing.
>>94485255>Coupled with the fact that Witch Hunt met with him a few months back to discuss his next game and you got some rumors of what he might be doingEnglish translation on release, get hyped.
So I'm playing this game and I'm on Episode 2.I'm enjoying it so far but something has been confusing me.If Battler and Beato are trying to figure out what happaned on Rokkenjima then why are they trying to figure out an entirely different scenario where different people died? Shouldn't they be trying to figure out what happened in Episode 1? The episode that Battler actually lived to experience?
>>94485393Ohhh shit, new blood.Dude, leave this thread, we're full on spoiler everywhere.
>>94485393>Battler actually lived to experienceWhat the fug dude, you wanna get spoiled or what? Get out.
>>94485393>If Battler and Beato are trying to figure out what happaned on RokkenjimaThey aren't. Don't stop thinking.
>>94485562>>94485595Alright alright, I'm outBut then how the hell did you guys explain it BEFORE you got figure it out?
>>94485393Shit, can't say.Where are you at in the episode?Simply put, Beatrice wants to become a true witch and Battler is the key to something bigger.
>>94485393Dude, when you get to the mid point of episode 3, make a Umineko thread and we've celebrate with you.
>>94485629>But then how the hell did you guys explain it BEFORE you got figure it out?Oh boy, this goat actually thinks we've figured things out.
>>94485684>>94485681>>94485643>>94485609>>94485595Right, I'm just gonna read on.On an unrelated note, I'm in love with this tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flqUYyZrm8E&list=PL66E83C0EC46E7181&index=9
>>94485629Magic, we ain't gotta explain shit.>>94485684Dude, he doesn't even know what a goat is, I don't think you can insult him like that.
>>94485754Good taste.Umineko has Godlike tracks in it.It really has a sense of witchcraft in it.The amount of music in Umineko is just insane.
>>94485756>Dude, he doesn't even know what a goat is, I don't think you can insult him like that.I assume you mean the Goat Butlers?Battler is currently getting shit faced
>>94485848>Goat ButlersFuck, you got me to smirk.WHEN THERE'S SOMETHING STRAAAANNNGGE, IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD, WHO YOU GUNNA CALL?GOOATT BUSTTLERRRR.NANA NANAA NANANA NANANANANANAI AIN'T AFRAID OF NO WITCH.
>>94485848>Battler is currently getting shit facedOh god, prepare for Rosa's crowning moment. WORLD END DOMINATOR.
>>94485848So where at you at in the episode?How many dead?
>>94486019>Oh god, prepare for Rosa's crowning moment.Yeaah, I nearly broke at that moment.Fuck. I wish I could reread Umineko for the first time.
>>94486019>>94486076https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKkw71ff3UBest track on the entire OST after dreamenddischarger of course
>>94486629Nah, the best track if the ending song for ep 8 and the duet of Furfur and Zeparhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH_rwqWny9sAlso Executioner. I fucking screamed when it played. Goddamn there is great music in Umineko that I just love.
>>94487021Fuck, might as well put the whole damn collection that I loved.I can listen to worldend dominator the whole day. It's really damn perfect.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p85zQLOMlUYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M--LGs1-Oyghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szNUd-oj2dE